Moonstars, Archived Discussion 1
What to do with the game
--Kenjura 14:55, 9 July 2008 (PDT)
I have noticed that there is very little engagement in this game. There is a lot of confusion about how to proceed. I don't like playing that way, and I don't think anyone else does easier.
I think I can dissect these issues and come up with some real solutions.
Confusion
One of the big, obvious problems is confusion. Many of the players have limited knowledge of the Realms, and thus are not going to be able to think of many solutions to the complicated problems they face.
To a certain extent, it is the responsibility of old players to help new ones with this. Phil, in particular, is quite new to the Realms, and therefore cannot be expected to know very much about them. I would expect the other players to help him with the lore as much as I do. I can only do so many things at once while running a game.
If you've been playing in the Realms for 8 years, you should probably have a pretty decent concept of it by now. That's just the responsibility of any PC.
I know you're all smart enough to handle the concept of time travel; that shouldn't be a problem. So it must be something else.
Lack of Interest
If a player or character does not care about solving the central conflict in the campaign, then they won't be able to come up with many ideas about how to do that.
The central conflict of this game is this:
- In 1385, Cyric, acting as a pawn to Shar, assassinates Mystra. Chaos ensues, and a veritable apocalypse occurs. Magic is never the same, Mystra never comes back, and most good things in the world are destroyed forever.
This was illuminated, in no uncertain terms, not only before the game, but right at the beginning.
Now here's the kicker:
Of course, nobody wants their character to be entirely dictated by the central plot. However, I feel the plot is generic enough that anybody could have a connection with it. Any arcane spellcaster, for instance, has a lot to lose if Mystra dies.
Obviously, only the most insane, evil characters would prefer the dark future in which Mystra does die. But simply not wanting it to happen isn't enough. Villagers don't want to be eaten by goblins, but the heroes who save them have deeper motivations than that.
Your character should have some sort of hook that ties them to the central plot. It should be something that will change during the course of the adventure. You might have some hooks already, but if they don't coincide with the main plot, they are unlikely to matter in the course of the game. You will have to go well out of your way to make them happen, including a lot of work with the DM. The DM does not owe anybody individual character development; if the whole party can't participate (and like it), I'm not going to run it.
I can't really address everything by being generic, so I'll address each individual character.
- Tasha
Being a warlock, she doesn't necessarily get her magic from the Weave. Moreover, it's uncertain how much she values her magic. Being of morally ambiguous alignment, it's not certain if she even wants to live in a good future, let alone a post-apocalyptic one. Who knows, her demonic inclinations may prefer a future world, where mages are weak, but her demonic power remains strong.
Tasha needs to decide why she cares, or at least pretends to care. She's in odd company with this party, and will necessarily have to disguise her darker intentions (if any). Whether feigned or true, she should have a strong conviction about preventing the Spellplague.
- Justinian
Justinian is an interesting dramatic concept, but it is good company with many other interesting dramatic concepts which are difficult to play. By his nature, he is a character who wanted to retire, who wanted to die, but is literally being forced to adventure by a god, whom I am obliged to play as the DM, or at least represent.
Understandably, this causes some issues. Who wants to feel like they are being forced through a game by the DM? That is the classic pitfall of failed games and bad DMs. In many ways, it's almost like Justinian assumed the position, and made it impossible for me to do anything but railroad him through a plot he'd rather not bother with.
For him to work, he will need to be played in a clever manner, so as to absolve me, the DM, from the responsibility of forcing him through the adventure. I want my players to pursue the game with enthusiasm and personal interest, not out of obligation. If that's what you want, Don, then you have to show it. The story of Justinian and his god can still work, but you, as a player, have to change your relationship with me, the plot, and the other characters so as not to project the involuntary nature of his quest onto everyone else.
::Comment withheld, pending discussion off-wiki with Gino & Andy.--Pilitus 18:26, 9 July 2008 (PDT)
- Thrax
Thrax is very new, so there isn't much to say. He's a simple character, but he knows far more than he lets on. I'm not expecting him to come up with a great plan involving mythallars, flying spaceships, and superintelligent shades of the color blue. His interests lie with smashing, crushing, and perhaps axe-sharpening.
Simple characters do not necessarily have a lot of pull with the plot--they tend to follow rather than lead--but their simplicity means they tend less to get in the way of the plot or other characters. If that's what you want, then go for it.
- Tobin
Tobin is actually quite integrated with the story, but needs a lot more knowledge of the Realms if he is to present many useful suggestions for advancing the story.
::Here's a couple suggestions as to a some things to read. I'd read the chapter on Netheril in the 3e product "Lost Empires of Faerun". It's not too long, maybe twenty pages or so, and has some good stuff in it. Also, helpful is the 3e product "Grand Chronology of the Realms". --Gino
::I'm currently assaulting the Lost empires book. Philng 11:39, 10 July 2008 (PDT)
- Artume
Artume may or may not be replaced in session 4. I'll treat her as if she won't be until I know for sure.
Artume was born in Elfland, and has lived there forever, literally until the day she joined the party. Sure, elves don't want a post-apocalyptic world, but she, like most elves, has no special connection with Mystra to really drive the plot home. Her character flaw--a shyness about people which belies her iron-willed confidence in battle--has an unfortunate resonance, aggravating her inherent difficulty in contributing to the plot by making it difficult for her to even speak up about her ideas.
Of course, to remove that flaw is to nullify the character concept, reducing her to a sword and a bag of hit points, and worse still, it does nothing to give her a new connection with Mystra. It is possible that living in Myth Drannor for 7 years might change her ideas about the connection of elves to magic.
- Aleric
Aleric is, of course, deeply entrenched in the plot, as the son of the Simbul, and a sworn enemy of Shar and all who use the Shadow Weave. That is more than enough to tie him deeply to the plot.
Unfortunately, he is the only one with this kind of connection. Everyone knows he cares, so they will tend to wait until he comes up with an idea. Unlike Dorian, he doesn't have the roleplaying freedom to say "screw you guys, I'm gonna go make a vile spell with Szass Tam", nor do I, as the DM, represent a limitless pile of enemies with a specific grudge against his character who can be drawn on at any time to inject instant adventure hooks.
Conclusions and Questions
- If you are confused, ask questions. Preferably out of game, if they are not in-character questions.
- If your character isn't interested in the plot, try to come up with a way that they might be. I can work with you to a certain extent. In extreme cases, you might even try a different character.
- If you are neither confused nor disinterested...then what is the problem? Do you just want to play a different game entirely? Different level? System? World? People? Not play any game at all?
-Kenjura 14:55, 9 July 2008 (PDT)
Response: Phil
I guess I have a couple of words to add - I think the last game, plot wise, is quite significant for the story arc.
- One major change is the complete change in system; which did cause me to be a little lost in combat
- I do concur that I have a significant amount of reading to do; I am starting my assault on the Player's Guide to Faerun, etc, etc.
- One of my concerns with Tobin is a certain lack of direction for me; I should be doing something; I'm not sure how or what to add. I need to talk with you in regards to some more of my player's "secrets and knowledge" so that I can do better in that topic. A good example of this was my intro; that was quite a memorable intro - But my way as time navigator really fell off the wagon.
- As a rogue, I feel a bit hindered by my lack of skills - Ok. I have diplomacy; I can't do a negotiation (on price?) OK, well Artume rocks in that. ~.^ But I have to spend alot on things such as lock pick and tumble, and knowledge of the history (which i seem to be lacking in :o) When I only have so many to choose from. I almost feel like a 3.5 fighter !
Anyway, there by my ¥2
Philng 18:04, 9 July 2008 (PDT):* The system will take some getting used to. This can't be avoided. 3e would be an adjustment. 4e would be as well; we've only played it for 2 sessions. Hang in there.
:* As for learning about the Realms--there is just so damn much content to absorb, I can't possibly expect anyone to get up to speed on a scale of less than years. This is where other, more experienced players should be helping you.
:* Tobin's direction as a character is definitely something we can work on. However, you must take the initiative, at least in starting the conversation. I'll do what I can. We're both busy, so we'll probably have to resign ourselves to it taking a little while to hash out.
:* It appears you did not update your skill selection after the recent changes. Check the Skills page on the wiki. You should have a few more skills. If you'd like more, you may take a feat to gain training in any one skill; you may gain any number of skills in this matter. Your ability to negotiate a price is based on the Mercantilism skill. You can attempt skill checks with or without training in the skill. You were capable of making the skill checks. Artume came along mostly because she wanted to, not because she's inherently better than you are. I have no idea what each of your characters' respective skill modifiers are. Feel free to ask for guidance in skill selection. Unlike a 3.5 fighter, you can gain serious skill training very fast through the use of feats. (Skill Training feat: here)
::Unfortunately i'd have to burn up feats to do it; I will review the skills portion soon. Philng 11:41, 10 July 2008 (PDT)
:-Kenjura 19:13, 9 July 2008 (PDT)